they've surrendered in afghanistan. they've lost the war in afghanistan. they're beginning to pull people out of there. after ten years we have not even been able to build a security situation where karzai's main political lieutenants are protected. the mayor of kandahar was just blown up -- >> you know the white house and the defense department would say not that they've lost in afghanistan and many families who've been over there would say no, that's not the case, that they have stabilized things much more than they were before, they got bin laden, they drove a lot of these people back either into the mountains or over to the pakistani side and they're still going to keep mopping them up. that doesn't sound -- it may not sound like victory to many, but it certainly doesn't sound like defeat to others, too. >> well, it's a complete loss, tom. >> why do you say that? >> we will dress it up -- because we will dress it up for the american people as mr. panetta did today, but for 1.4 billion muslims, when the united states leaves afghanistan without accomplis